July 18 the head of the DND Alexander Zakharchenko made a loud statement on the establishment of the place of Ukraine in the new state Ruthenia. The statement caused a great resonance and was seen ambiguously, even in Moscow, and the leaders of Germany and France called it unacceptable. What was the purpose of the head of the breakaway region, making such a statement? Does it mean that the project “new Russia” finally buried? And what is the impact on the fate of the creators of DND is to have a court decision on the Malaysian “Boeing”? With these questions, “MK” asked the very competent interlocutors — former Prime Minister of DNR Alexander Boroday and former head of intelligence of the unrecognized state, Andrey Pinchuk.
photo: Elena Korotkova
Andrey Pinchuk and Alexander Boroday
— On the third anniversary of the tragedy Malaysian “Boeing” became known that the Netherlands is preparing to trial the alleged perpetrators of the death of passengers of flight MH17. This decision was taken by countries who are investigating the crash are the Netherlands, Ukraine, Malaysia, Belgium and Australia. You are among the most knowledgeable about these events. After all, you were there?
Yes. I was there, Andrew was. We actually came together right to the steaming remains of the “Boeing”. So what?
Just you better than anyone should know what really happened in the sky above the Donbass July 17, 2014.
— In fact, it is somewhat podnatorevshy story. I two hundred times to all of these questions answered. We had neither the motive nor the technical capability to bring down the “Boeing”.
— Nevertheless, the findings of the investigation and the court can directly affect you or one of your comrades. For example, Bellingcat group already claims that movements of the installation “Buk”, which was supposedly shot down “Boeing”, was chaired by the head of the army intelligence DNI Gloomy, which they identificeret as the Russian retired Colonel Sergey Dubinsky. Can he be declared wanted?
Let who want to find, gloomy, funny… the Dutch and all sorts of similar companions can have fun as you want. They have the opportunity to do it in the last three years, and they probably will continue these publications for a long time. I am also interested in only one question: why, when Boeing fell, they did not hurry to go to the scene, was not in a hurry. They have accumulated a huge mass of experts in Kiev that was absolutely tantamount to accumulate in any other world capital. In London, in Melbourne they could brand with the same success to sit. But I invited them absolutely officially, at press conferences, which were a lot of journalists from foreign media. Through these journalists, I tried to broadcast only one thing: “Dear experts, collect belongings and get all the same somehow to the city of Donetsk. We’ll try to provide a maximum degree of safety and security. Start already to do something and somehow work.” But experts are not driving, do not hurry.
But they must be explained it is safety reasons.
They explained it anything. I want to tell you that at this time the government in Kiev, the Kiev authorities, which are supposed to be interested in the fact that the experts came from (because they are seen as perpetrators of us), for some reason hard these experts inhibited. When we got to the Malaysians, led by Colonel Sahri, he told me that he done anything to his mission, consisting of 12 people from Kiev not to release. So they first got to Kharkov, on the chaise and underground. That is, it is on the territory of Ukraine, controlled by Kiev, was moving like partisan. This Malaysian guerrillas, a member of the security Council of Malaysia Colonel Mohamed Sahri. It is, if I’m not mistaken, via Ramzan Kadyrov got my phone number, phoned me and asked which I think is a bit naive. I then had a lot of fun. He said, “I was in Kharkov. You can me from Kharkov to take?” I said, “of Course I would have wanted. But first we need to take Kharkov. So you try something closer to jump to the line of contact. And there we already take”. We did take. A group of soldiers the General Prosecutor’s office (we had such a strange belligerent General Prosecutor’s office, they even have their tanks were) popped up on my command and those Malaysians picked up on the road. They were in a light trance, because while they were traveling, for some reason they started to fire at the Ukrainian plane and barely covered. That is Ukraine’s interest to experts along, as you can see, was “the most high”. They did all the experts go, and then did everything that they did not get. They were willing to sacrifice these experts, to inflict another scandal, if only they didn’t make it. Then, by the way, after Malaysians still come whether three, whether four Dutch, and I pay tribute to their courage, because they just kind of snuck up on foot on the territory of the DNI, almost through the forest. It was the medical experts. Why Ukraine was so not interested that the experts came on the scene?
— You personally handed the flight recorders of “Boeing” Malaysian side. There are photos and video showing that you make those orange boxes in good condition…
— Yes, absolutely intact. They were found gradually. They have accumulated, and I slept next to them, to them, nothing happened. First one, then two, then three or four.
— The question is: why is still not released transcripts from these boxes?
— Actually similar issues have very much occurred. So for me, the partisanship of the action that is happening there, that this tent, which is called the court, are quite clear. And what will happen next in the same tent, I, frankly, not very interesting.
— Two months ago at our editorial office came one fellow with a stack of documents that referred to the orders of the Ministry of defense of Ukraine concerning the tasks, who received Ukrainian aircraft on 17 July 2014. He brought up and said that the original Ukrainian side is destroyed. Then he these documents merged in another publication. Do you think it is original documents, or it’s some kind of provocation…
Or just crooks that are trying these documents to sell? Anything can be. I have no idea.
— These people did not leave?
— I have a variety of people came. But so far, so it was kind of frankly fake information. Moreover, it is to me why? I am not a person who is leading the investigation. I once, being in power in the NPT, did everything to make all these goddamn international experts had the opportunity to investigate these events. All that was possible in terms of scope of work and their safety. They continue to investigate. I’m not an investigator, and I’m not interested. We then justice was created, it was the interior Ministry, and security services, and prosecutors. When the leaders of these agencies came to me and said, “let’s investigate themselves?” I told them: no, not necessary.
But the case was filed.
— The case was initiated, but it was a certain formality. I said we must not go into the investigation. Because what you do will be the world community, firstly, considered to be an attempt to “cover up” this story, and secondly, it’s still not going anywhere. Because you are in the eyes of the world, or rather, we all are not legitimate representatives of the government at the moment. So now nothing to do. Just helping all these wonderful experts and provide the scope of work. Will work, then let them go and figure it out.
Why are they selectively took out the fragments of the aircraft?
— And you wanted them all the pieces put together? There was a huge amount. 15 square kilometers. A huge plane, huge spread. Falling from a great height.
— That is, they are not physically able to do it?
They could physically do it, but it needed a special technique. We have such technology was not. Moreover, part of the territory, on which were scattered the debris, it was actually a line of contact. Before the fall of the “Boeing” it was a fairly quiet sector of the front. That is, quite quiet, quite frankly. On it nothing happened. But as soon as “the Boeing” has fallen, there the fire began. Intense shelling by the enemy. To collect all those pieces, sacrificing their own lives, nor the experts, nor the OSCE mission members were not ready. And rightly so. And we were even forced sometimes to hold them, to evacuate from the place of work. Because here starts the fire, and there they roam. And guys Alexis savage, the then Deputy Minister of internal Affairs of the Republic, they were taken from there.
— The situation with the “Boeing” should be considered in context with other air incident, which involved Ukraine. In 2001, during the exercise of Ukrainian military shot down the s-200 missile over the Black sea a Russian passenger plane flying from Israel to Novosibirsk. This is fully proved. You know that Ukraine is still not officially acknowledged that she hit him? Have you heard anything about the international Tribunal on this plane? None of the Ukrainian military who shot down the plane, was not prosecuted. Now military who shot down the plane, is the same military that shot down the Malaysian “Boeing”.
— Who have learned to aim accurately and get the first time…
— There is no doubt that in 2001, the Russian plane was shot down by Ukraine? No. The algorithm of actions of Ukraine about the downed “Boeing” is absolutely similar to the algorithm of its actions on the previous plane. So lied, denied, withheld the facts. Further. History, when Ukraine was threatened and forced to turn around in the sky and land at Kiev airport with full tanks of Belarusian passenger plane. The pilots threatened in case of disobedience to use combat aircraft. On Board were 140 people. By the following fact. Ukrainian air defense twice held exercises in the area of civil aviation, Russia near the Crimea. All of these actions can be seen a certain logic. They believe that the international protectorate allows them to do all this.
— If the court in the Netherlands found guilty you personally, what will you do?
— Yes, we can do nothing. First let recognize. I’ll see how they are on this subject shift. I don’t see there any serious prospects.
— Neither I, nor Alexander Yurievich no one officially claims not voiced. Therefore, to recognize there is nothing even from the point of view of their logic. I think sooner or later will be held, by this court. Over those who are guilty.
— Back to Zakharchenko recently put forward the idea of the Ukraine. What is the project? Will it help to resolve the situation or will drive her even more a dead end? Does this mean that the idea of new Russia has refused?
— Little Russia — is a project that can be discussed. In form it was the most outrageous stuffing, which produced a bombshell. And now the brains of the residents and their “managing partners” from the West around this idea slowly but surely to turn. You see, and will stumble finally. It is this act of information warfare. In this sense, the project “little Russia” can still have a role to play. It is possible to discuss. The historic little Russia no relation to the Donbass does not. A significant part of the Luhansk region at the time — this is the land of the great don army. Donetsk and its surroundings is first, a Wild pitch, and then the new Russia. Since Potemkin and Suvorov recaptured Krymchaks these lands, Donbass has become a territory of the Russian Empire and the history of the Ukraine that includes the area of the left-and partly right-Bank Ukraine, is not any. Donbass was settled in the XIX century, in the period of intensive industrial development of this region. Went there from all over the country all sorts of people. The local population is initially quite mastrovito. Besides the Ukrainians and the great Russians, and Greeks, and Jews (Donetsk is considered to be a very Jewish city), and German colonists and Serbian immigrants. The Soviet Union has added its flavor. And after 1945 in Western Ukraine, there was intense struggle with Bandera, and from there to the Donbas people resettled entire villages. Donbass — it is really part of the Russian world, its inhabitants in General all Russian people, even if they are Greeks, even if their ancestors from the Western Ukraine. But they have their own regional specificity. Its regional identity. They say to yourself that they are Donetsk, donbasstsy. Do you know why the Donetsk and Lugansk still not United? Because they are a little different. Luganchane in the historical memory more associate themselves with the Cossacks. And with don Cossacks. And Shakhtar have your mentality. So stuffing, which is so famously made by Alexander Zakharchenko, is an ideological project that is not for Donbass. It is designed to try to break the deadlock the situation at least in terms of the discussion. Formally the Minsk agreement, no one denied. Donetsk and Lugansk remain under these agreements. But we see that the process of the Minsk agreements is now very much stalled. Actually dead center.
— To comply with them, Kiev is necessary to change the Constitution of Ukraine.
— We understand that the current Kiev it does not agree.
— Not at risk if Kiev not fulfilling the Minsk agreements, to lose the support of the West, particularly the United States?
— Oddly enough, while we see the opposite: the administration trump’s support for Ukraine even intensified.
— What can be the reason?
— The fact that trump has been extremely weak President who barely sitting on his presidential chair. He’s constantly faced with the threat of impeachment. He is forced to take his team one by one. Trump constantly have to roll against charges that he is a “Russian project”. To that end, his team and starts a more intensive dance around Ukraine. To show: see how we Russians do not love! The only task of the administration of trump in relation to Ukraine to prove that Ukraine it supports exactly because it does not support Russia. And Russia it does not support because he is not a Russian project. That’s all.
— Merkel and macron already negatively assessed the project “little Russia”. It is obvious that for the West the proposal is unacceptable, that is, to compromise and to move the settlement process from the dead point to it?
— I do not quite understand the position of Western leaders . They Zakharchenko’s statement would have been met with thunderous applause. Because the Donbass said that he is no longer in Ukraine and is focused on joining the Russian Federation. Goes Zakharchenko says: “We are creating a new state, in fact, the same Ukraine. But since Ukraine is in its current form is discredited, the government in Kiev is unconstitutional, the government, the country is in deep crisis, we propose to restart the situation.” Zakharchenko issued a statement on the Ukraine, in fact, said that the Donbass is ready to be in one with big Ukraine state. Where’s the applause of the West? In fact, the idea is that a legitimate part of the Ukraine, which could then become the whole Ukraine in General, is now in the Donbas. And this is the case. Technology coming to power, Poroshenko, Zakharchenko was the same. They came by the capture of administrations, usurping of authority, and further legitimization through elections. But Zakharchenko legitimacy a little more, because he has not committed crimes against the state in the form of the overthrow of the legitimate President. And Poroshenko did it. And here’s Zakharchenko, a number of more legitimate, says: please restart the country. The whole country, Ukraine. He issued a statement Russia out of the equation leaves. West, why do you not rejoice? What’s wrong? After they so gallantly stated that little they are not satisfied that, logically, should say Zakharchenko? “Well, not happy — returned to the new Russia”. Refusal from the adoption of the draft “little Russia” the West has clearly given up on prospects of joining of the Donbass to Ukraine. West, mind you, not Russia. Now, in Donbass there is only one way to Russia.
Read the material: I date is not known: the head of DNR was going to take Kiev
The Ukrainian crisis. Chronicle of events