Between Ukraine and Poland erupted “genocidal” war. Fortunately, at the diplomatic level. The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine may recognize as genocide the actions of Poland towards the Ukrainians in the years 1919-1951. The draft of this order has already been registered in the Ukrainian Parliament. It was brought by independent Deputy Oleh Musiy. Earlier, the Polish Sejm acknowledged the genocide of the Volyn massacre, and approved July 11 as day of remembrance of the victims of this tragedy. The piquancy of the situation is that in carrying out genocide accused banned in Russia Organization of Ukrainian nationalists (OUN) and its military wing, the UPA (Ukrainian insurgent army), whose leaders – Bandera and Shukhevych – declared in Ukraine as national heroes. About the significance of this event Explorer MK talks to historian and political scientist, leading researcher of the Russian Institute for strategic studies (RISS) Oleg Nemensky.
“Nothing sensational in these documents no
– Oleg, soon after the recognition of the Volyn massacre genocide in Poland announced that Khokhlov, when the grubbing of trees found the tube with the documents is forbidden in Russia of the UPA. The documents contained the appeals to Ukrainians to kill their Polish spouses, not to spare, if necessary, Polish women and children… somehow very much in time “found” these documents. It’s a real godsend?
– This is a real find. But I think I found them earlier, and now made public. Published, of course, on occasion, as additional justification to the resolutions of the Senate and the Sejm.
– That is, they have long had the documents but concealed from the public?
– I don’t know how long. But I think they have a lot of such documents that can be convenient in the circumstances to bring to the public. There is nothing wrong. If these documents revealed a year ago, then they would be little noticed. And now, when there is disappointment with Ukraine, when adopted by resolution of the Senate and the Sejm, they sounded. In these documents there is nothing sensational. This is a common manifestation of the ideology of Ukrainian nationalism.
– At the same time from Warsaw sound quite so extravagant statements. In particular, the Minister of defence of Poland Anthony Macierewicz said that the Volyn massacre was organized by Russia, using for this purpose the Ukrainian nationalists. Such idea in Poland – the destiny of a few eccentrics, or we also have to prepare for the accusations of genocide?
– That’s how the Polish consciousness. On earth the Good pole is Poland. Next to him there are countries that are “nearly Good”. It is France, England, USA. Those countries which in principle are drawn to do Good and want to help him, but don’t always do it. And there is the pole of Evil – Russia. And all the evil on the planet is somehow going to be connected with Russia. Against the poles, so if something is bad, then surely the Russians were involved.
Bronislaw Komorowski (President of Poland from 2010 to 2015, spoke in favor of the version that the Volyn massacre was not Bandera, but dressed in Bandera provocateurs from the NKVD. No evidence of this. But so says one of the leading politicians of Poland, who was recently President.
The recent resolution of the Polish Sejm there is a paragraph that although the tragic events in the “Kresy” (Eastern Borderlands of the interwar Poland – M. P.) to blame the Ukrainian nationalists, though the main responsibility lies with those who created the situation in which escalated inter-ethnic enmity. Is the aggressors – Germany and the Soviet Union (as it is believed that the Second world war began with the invasion of Poland after signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). But here we come to the question: not whether the Soviet Union the Second World war?
But after serious Polish historians, I hope, don’t you think?
– Poland – intellectually and ideologically very monolithic state. There is freedom of expression, but in a very narrow framework of political correctness. A historian who suddenly say that the USSR did not start the Second world war, risk losing a job with him would talk to him and special services in the Polish conditions it will be very difficult. There is mainstream, which can be described as moderate. It is that the Soviet Union started the Second world war, but it is not necessary all the evil of this war is to blame on the Soviet Union. There is a more radical point of view. For example, what should have been Poland time to conclude an Alliance with Germany against the USSR as Germany was forced to attack Poland because of provocations by the Soviet Union. But the idea that the USSR did not start the Second world war, are now simply irrelevant, they are not part of the “political correctness”.
“Ukrainians” – a more radical ideology than Nazism”
– On the question of the NKVD, who allegedly dressed in Bandera. I’ve seen pictures of just Bandera in the Soviet form, which are disguised as soldiers, police or guerrillas terrorized the population…
– It is possible. I have no sympathy for the NKVD, but they physically could not carry out such operations and on such a scale on these lands. There are no documents that could somehow confirm this. This is an attempt of Poland to find a compromise with the current anti-Russian Ukrainian government. But I think these attempts are hopeless, because Poland is officially pleaded guilty Bandera. Then the poles and Ukrainians each other do not agree. Because Bandera and Shukhevych, who headed UPA, is recognized in contemporary Ukraine heroes and national symbols. And for the sake of relations with Poland they will not give up.
– What evidence is there that the NKVD could not participate in the Volyn massacre?
– Such evidence is not necessary, as there is no evidence of their participation. There’s a presumption of innocence. With the same success it is possible to prove the non-participation of the NKVD in the Anglo-Boer war, for example. If the Polish party could present any documents about participation of the Soviet Union in the Volyn massacre, that would be a topic of conversation. And it is not.
– Ukraine is now widely believed that Bandera, this “Holy freedom fighters”, slandered the Soviet propaganda. Supposedly the documents about their participation in the Holocaust and other atrocities fabricated… Could the Banderites do become victims of “Soviet propaganda”?
Documents confirming participation of Bandera in the Holocaust, complete. Ukrainian nationalists do not even could not participate. Because many of them were serving in the police, which was obliged to carry out these activities. The attitude of the Jews was extremely hard and for ideological reasons. The very ideology of Ukrainian integral nationalism, the so-called “Ukrainians”, is very close to Nazism or fascism. We often say that “Ukrainians” is equal to Nazism. Still it is a different, although very close, the ideology. It is historically older than Nazism, as it was formed since the end of the 19th century.
– Who is the Creator of this ideology? Dontsov?
– She doesn’t have one Creator. Don is one of the largest of its ideologues. “Ukrainians” something even more radical ideology than Nazism or fascism. Because it involves the ethnocide of the indigenous population. Nazism did not deny German national identity. Ukrainian nationalism approached the issue differently. Because the identity of the population of those lands, which are claimed by the Ukrainian national project, has historically been Russian. The local population considered themselves Russian. The problem was that the Russian identity has combined this population with the Russians. Should they were to tear, this was invented “Ukrainian” identity. Forced change of identity is something that is recognized by ethnocide. This is a conscious policy on the adoption of a new identity, to deprive large masses of their traditional national name. This was not Nazism nor fascism. This is an original moment in the history of Ukrainians.”
Most “Ukrainians” was spread fairly rigid methods?
Yes, especially during the Second world war. As correctly stated in the resolutions of the Senate and Sejm of Poland, the Ukrainian nationalists destroyed not only poles, but also a number of other peoples living in the territory. They destroyed and the Ukrainians themselves. Destroyed by the Ukrainian nationalists of other views, “Melnyk”, for example. Destroyed the local population, unwilling to accept the ideology of “Ukrainians.” That is carried ethnocide against its East Slavic indigenous population. And to encourage people to such actions is possible only through inculcating in them a burning hatred. It is an ideology of hatred, and now we can see how Ukraine is sinking into the abyss.
These ethnic cleansing was directly embedded in the ideology of “Ukrainians”, or were simply the excesses of the local artists?
Ideologues of “Ukrainians” was emphatic about the necessity of purification from foreign elements. It is very interesting to study the documents about the attempts of collaboration of Ukrainian nationalists with the Third Reich. This letter, which went to Berlin with the offer to participate in certain promotions and programs, including the destruction of the Jews. For Ukrainian nationalists it could only be quite natural, because their ideology is meant. For the Germans, Bandera seemed not the most desirable partners, so failure of cooperation on the part of the Germans was much more than suggestions. Bandera was important to clear their land from poles and Jews in the first place, and secondly from the “Muscovites”, “Katsap”, that is, from those members of the East Slavic population, which refused to accept the ideology of “Ukrainians.”
– The “Ukrainian project” – that is, the formation of a separate Russian “Ukrainian people” with its own language, history, ideology – has local or foreign origin?
– Origins there are many: both local and foreign. There is an opinion that this project was invented in Vienna or in Berlin and then imported to Ukraine. But there were a lot of local prerequisites. The movement of ukrainophilism, local patriotism, which emerged in the 19th century created the basis for the emergence of “Ukrainians.” It then layered a specific Polish ideas that “Muscovites” – it absolutely other people, and actually Russian – Ukrainians and Belarusians, who were historically part of the Polish people. Then the idea of distinguishing between the Russians and the Russians raised on the shield in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Because it was a good way to protect the province of Galicia from Russian influence to convince the local population that they are completely different people than the one who lives in Russia. In 1890 local “Ukrainian” movement for the first time loudly declared itself, when members of the Galician Sejm Julian Romanchuk and Anatole Vakhnianyn announced from the rostrum that the people, inhabiting Galicia is not Russian, and Ukrainians (at the same time they also swore allegiance to the Imperial house of Habsburg and the Catholic Church – M. P. ). This year you can keep history of “Ukrainians” as officially presented ideology.
“Poland no longer need to fight for Ukrainian sympathy”
– What can be the motives of Poland? Maybe she wants to show Ukraine some material or territorial claims?
– Now many say that Poland wants to Annex Galicia and Volyn. But I am sure that is an absolute lie. Such radical ideas in Polish politics there. Of course, they would like to return to Lviv, and to restore the borders of interwar Poland. But without the local population. To enter in the number of its citizens millions of Ukrainians in Poland no one wants, because the attitude towards them there is very negative. Ukrainians are afraid, even at the household level.
– You want the poles to raise the issue of restitution, i.e. the return of their property, which remained in the Ukraine?
– Yes, there is such a topic. But it is not connected with the recognition of the genocide. Needless to say that if Ukraine wants to become part of the European community, it has to implement all those procedures that are conducted by other Soviet bloc countries and former Soviet republics. Restitution is one of these procedures and it is compulsory. Another thing is that other countries have been able to hold it very cleverly, so that it is not highly outraged citizens. But I don’t think that Ukraine will allow you to do the same. Most likely, it will be quite a hard procedure for the seizure of the property of the Ukrainians. Because Ukraine is a weak country, she had nowhere to go and nobody to help her in this process.
– Why Poland raised the issue of the genocide right now?
– This is the most interesting. It would seem, finally, in the Kiev authority, the Pro-European forces, and Poland suddenly went to a deterioration of relations. Actually, everything is logical. When Ukraine held a multi-vector policy, she had to fight. Because she could take and go to Russia. Then the adoption of such a law could really prevent. And now, when Ukraine made a clear choice, Poland will no longer need to fight for the Ukrainian sympathy.
By the way, the supposedly “Pro-Eastern” Ukrainian authorities under Kuchma, and Yanukovych quite successfully coped with the desire of Poland to recognize the Volyn massacre as genocide. In 2003, on the 60th anniversary of the massacre, Kuchma organized a joint statement by the presidents of Ukraine and Poland to honor the memory of the victims of the tragedy, and thus managed to avoid recognition of the genocide. In 2013, on the 70th anniversary, Yanukovych, too, was fun to work with Poland, which had adopted the Senate resolution, in which the Volyn massacre was called “the mass murder with signs of genocide”. But there was the wording “genocide”. Then managed to convince the poles that it is not necessary to quarrel with Ukraine. But the current Pro-Western government is absolutely failed.
The second point. Poland is now very frustrated euromaidan government. After the first Maidan was still possible to say that the recognition of the heroes of Bandera and Shukhevych, saying that it was the personal predilections of Yushchenko, which not everyone shares. Now in Poland are beginning to realize that Pro-European forces configured antibarbarus, Ukraine just yet. Poland is now at a loss. She supported the Ukrainian “Pro-European” forces, and the result was probanderovskie Ukraine, what for Poland is even worse than Pro-Russian. Because Bandera is those who in principle can not be the case. If you once admit the right of Bandera in existence, you betray the memory of our ancestors. But most Polish politicians understand that the glorification of Bandera has become part of the national ideology in Ukraine. And they will have to accept it, if they want to have Ukraine in some sort of relationship. Probably after some time we will see how the Polish President lays flowers to the monument to Stepan Bandera in Kiev. Although it is for the poles is something absolutely unthinkable. But there is no chance that Ukraine will refuse to worship Bandera.
Even with the change of power?
– Any new government will probanderovskie. After Yanukovych became President, he left almost everything that was accumulated during Yushchenko in the glorification of Bandera.
And perhaps that reflected his incompetence as a politician?
It’s not his incompetence, it is the conditions in which he worked. If he took politics to degeroizatsiya Bandera, he would have been toppled much earlier. He had a task to preserve the integrity of Ukraine. And this can be done either through political pressure or through a flirtation with both the East and the West. Yanukovych was trying to flirt with everyone, but the success was temporary. And most importantly, it does not have any real ideological alternative – regionals all “humanitarian aid” as they expressed it, gave the Galicians. So there is no hope that Ukraine will change the state ideology. While there will be Ukraine in its current form, it will be Bandera. And even if Ukraine will disintegrate and formed a small West Ukrainian state Bandera still it will be a cult figure. So the poles have to live with the fact that they in the East have a neighbor who glorifies the murderers of their ancestors.
“Ukrainians” inherently destructive”
– That is, you believe that you can stop the process “banderizatsii” Ukraine is impossible?
– When Yanukovych was still some chances that didn’t. Now I have these chances do not see. The ground you cannot turn back. . Without radical measures to change the situation impossible. Already there are millions of people, there is a generation educated in the spirit of “Ukrainians.”
– But the Germans after the Second world war fairly quickly rejected the ideology of Nazism…
Yes. They changed after the crushing defeat and brutal humiliation. In principle, there is a possibility that the Ukrainians refuse from Bandera, if you suffer as a crushing defeat and heavy international humiliation. But I don’t think the international community will give them such an act of healing.
– Really all so is fatal? I don’t want to believe it. It seems to me that simply turn off Ukrainian TV channels – and in a week the mood there will be quite different.
– And who will shut off? Even if the Russian army enters Kiev, nothing will change. Because Russia has no alternative ideology. She has a bad attitude specifically to Bandera and UPA. But the basics of Bandera ideology Russia agree. Russia agrees that historically there has been different people – Ukrainians, that is a separate people, although fraternal. We have no alternative ideology.
– What can be the alternative ideology?
– This is a complex issue. It is possible to build another option of local patriotism, who recognize our national identity formation and history. But Russia at the level of state policy is not engaged. State policy in this respect we have inherited from the Soviet time. In the Soviet Union, it was assumed that, historically on those lands there was a special Ukrainian people. And is the Foundation of Ukrainian nationalism. It is because of this statement they took the liberty to impose Ukrainian identity to the local population. Until this is recognized, to deny Bandera Outlook on life quite difficult. You can deny only the methods which they used.
– Can you talk about “banderizatsii” Ukraine as a project with clearly defined goals, funding, performers?
– Who is behind this project? The notorious CIA?
– When the CIA was engaged in Ukraine, the ideology of “Ukrainians” has been formed. America, on the basis of their national interests, just supported the Ukrainian émigré organization, which was engaged in the development of this ideology. 90 years, these immigrant organizations had a huge impact on the restoration of this ideological trends in Ukraine. And now the West is actively working with the Ukrainian youth, the Ukrainian scientific community. There are various programs that help financially to survive, scientists and public figures, who are in these positions. Money West creates the human and intellectual environment, which then reproduces itself. But the West is important, not Ukrainian patriotism as such, but the solution to the problem of separation of Ukraine from Russia, it is considered the most important way of weakening Russia. “Ukrainians,” much of it is the fact that the entire West considers it his duty to help him. Including Poland. Just in Poland can not understand that there is no Ukrainian nationalism, but Bandera does not exist. Therefore, they constantly find themselves in a ridiculous situation when on the one hand to support Ukrainian nationalism, and on the other condemn the actions of Bandera.
– May be, the recognition by Poland of the Armenian genocide will cause a “Domino effect”, and will be followed by some action and from other countries, which still focus not seen in Ukraine Bandera? How can you deny the obvious?
– If there is a political necessity, it is possible to deny anything. But Ukraine is weak and begging alms the country. With such a country will not be considered. Because of the failure of the “Ukrainian project” for political reasons to deny the obvious less.
And we can say that this project failed?
25 years ago Ukraine was the most promising post-Soviet state. Among the former Soviet republics it was the best chance of development. Now Ukraine is the most backward post-Soviet state. Without “Neftyanoi pillows” successful development Belarus, which was objectively the worst background 25 years ago. Ukraine is completely failed state. And his inconsistency more apparent. Economically Ukraine was a perfect chance. The reasons for its failure and ideological. Ukraine destroys the ideology of Ukrainian nationalism, which is the basis of the whole project. “Ukrainians” is destructive by its very nature. It is an ideology of self-destruction and the destruction of the space on which the Ukrainian national project claims. This ideology is terrible, but strong. And no chance that there are people suddenly come to their senses, no. Historical identity can be revived only in those regions where svidomo still a minority. And it is mostly the South-East. But this is possible only in the case of full disintegration of the state. And he, unfortunately, is unlikely to be peaceful.
Are you talking about the failure of the “Ukrainian project”. But if we assume that the aim of the project was not the creation of a developed democratic country, and the formation of just such anti-Russian state, it is possible to say that the project is successful?
In this respect, the project succeeded. But it was not an internal task, and external task forces, who use this project.
And what is the result? We got close to a hostile state?
– Yes, we got on its borders, the state, an armed far-right ideology, which sees its main purpose in the struggle with Russia. And the fact that we will get it, I and a number of other experts warned well before the current events. Unfortunately, we have not heard. I think that the recent tragic events are just the prelude to even greater tragedies that will unfold there.Related posts: