More than 13 thousands arrested, tens of thousands of dismissed civil servants, military, police, prosecutors, and teachers. In Turkey there are mass cleaning after a failed attempt of a military coup. Coups in this country occurred repeatedly and often ended with success. Military in the middle East has always been a major force. Therefore, the current strange “neopets” has generated a lot of questions. In fact, the military wanted to take power into their own hands or the coup was just a hoax, a provocation of special services to identify and neutralize enemies of the ruling regime? In the background of the Turkish coup in interview to an observer “MK” has tried to understand the well-known specialist in Turkic Philology, Deputy Director of the Institute for cultural and natural heritage named after D. S. Likhachev Evgeniy BORAWSKI.
“The army in Turkey was the main “European” part of society”
— Who is behind the attempt of military coup in Turkey, made in the night of July 16? Was it a coup “seriously” or, as some now suggest, dramatization, invented by Erdogan?
— I think that the coup was real. Indeed, Erdogan has cashed in all respects. But the risk for him was very great. Such a risk no sane politician will not go. Because during these events could happen anywhere. Erdogan himself could easily have died. It was enough to run into some zealous officer who still decided to kill him.
— This, which was “not subject” and decided suddenly that all for real?
Yes. And among the officers of the people who actually wanted to kill him and continue to want, thousands. So I think that it was serious.
— Why thousands of Turkish officers want to kill Erdogan?
— Because in it the position of the army in society has seriously deteriorated. Let us remember that the army in Turkey has always been a strength. Since the founding of the Republic, the army was the main bearer of the ideas of the secular state, which, having rejected Islam, rejecting tradition, is a true European way to world civilization.
— Generally army is considered the most conservative and even reactionary part of society. At least we have long thought so.
In the middle East, the army, the officer corps, is the primary carrier of ideas of modernization.
— The main progressive force?
Even the only progressive force. In the middle East in the nineteenth century, the army was the only force that stood for the European way. The reason is simple. Middle Eastern countries, primarily Turkey, as the strongest country in the region at that time, faced with the fact that Europe is much ahead of them militarily. In order to overcome this backwardness, had to modernize, primarily military-technical. And military-technical modernization and pulls everything else. To prepare officer-gunner that will shoot well from a modern gun, it is necessary to teach mathematics. To know math, it had to be taught not in religious but in secular schools. Attached to mathematics English, French or German. And the language attached literature. Culture always comes in the kit. Accordingly, the army in Turkey was the main “European” part of society.
— And what is the attitude of the army to the ideology of Islamism?
— The officer corps in the Turkish media is anti-Islamic ideology. And Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the Turkish Republic, held a very clear anti-Muslim policies since the beginning of his reign. It was part of his policy of Europeanization of the country. The gist of it was to throw religion out of political life. And he did it. So until now, the army in Turkey is the main force that is against traditionalism, against Islamism, for the full modernization of the country.
— What is a progressive army prevented Erdogan?
— During Erdogan’s Muslim forces in Turkey has ensured that the country is almost away from the course Ataturk. And for Turkey, Ataturk is almost the same as Lenin for the Soviet Union. The monument standing on every corner. The Muslims began to doubt the correctness of actions of Ataturk. And for the army it is a serious insult. Erdogan managed to push the army from its position of guard in the country, which ensures that everything is correct.
And Erdogan himself can be called an Islamist?
— Erdogan — with a soft Islamist. His Party of justice and development, the ruling is very modern Islamists. Their main initial goal was full membership in the European Union. Against such military objectives as the supporters of the European way, had nothing to say. However, from the European Union came the conditions that Turkey had to fulfill. There were 72. One of the main limitation was the role of the military in government activities. There have been a number of amendments to the Constitution, which undermined the position of the army in society. Before the army officially stood guard of secular democratic development of the country, was sure that Turkey has not deviated from the path of Ataturk. Now the army has lost its status as a public regulator in the country.
— That is, figuratively speaking, the military offered to “return to barracks”. But apparently not all of them agreed with it?
— In addition to the changes in the Constitution, there have been several demonstration trials. The first serious blow against the army is the case of the secret organization Ergenekon. Gathered quite a motley crew of people who had been convicted for the attempted plot to overthrow the current government. There were involved in the generals, but mostly retired. The generals were arrested, tried, imprisoned.
Then another trial, known as the “Balyoz” Turkish “sledgehammer”. Found a plan that was kept somewhere in the General staff, which was painted the scenario of the military coming to power. This document fell into the hands of the security services, who began to put bundles existing generals allegedly involved in the creation of this document. Although they said it was just the script, the legend for exercises. Then planted over 300 military, including the just-retired chief of the General staff. It was a severe blow to the credibility of the army. Even 15 years ago the military were the highest caste, almost celestial. Today, the military tend not to appear on the streets in uniform. To be a war in Turkey today are not so honorable.
— Therefore, the military tried to overthrow Erdogan?
— What happened, could not happen. It was clear that the military will try to do something. Because the country really is changing and the way Ataturk clearly turned. Their ideology is crushed, the army’s role is reduced. Now Erdogan has dealt the final blow.
On the role of Fethullah Gulen
— Why did the coup fail?
— What happened is not very clear. But it is obvious that the military acted very clumsily. The big question of the meaningfulness of their actions. Do not disconnect from the Internet, I have disabled the main TV channels, broadcast was made by the opponents of the coup, and even Erdogan himself was aired on the smartphone. The rebels lost the information completely. They didn’t have any of their broadcast. They did not explain to the people their actions. This suggests that the coup did the military really. The notorious Fethullah Gulen has nothing to do with it.
— What is this confidence based? Because of the involvement of Gulen’s many say.
— Because if the organizer was Gulen, the information component would be at a high level. The gülen movement — experts on this issue. They all would have explained to overthrow Erdogan’s good and right, and the crowd would come out for them. People who don’t like Erdogan in Turkey, really a lot. But they were not mobilized. And were mobilized electorate Erdogan. This is about half of the population. Through their mosques urged to take to the streets.
— Fethullah Gulen — a rather mysterious figure. But very influential. In Russia his books are recognized as extremist and banned, “the Turkish Lyceum”, founded by his followers, are closed. Who is he? The preacher, the philosopher, the head of the sect, the CIA agent?
— This famous religious-philosophical figure, the author of many books on theology and philosophy. He is also the organizer of a vast educational Empire in many countries: universities, schools, colleges, including kindergartens. In Turkey recently, it was closed. He is also the owner of a media Empire. Turkish cultural centers in many countries — is also its structure. It finances the carrying out of Olympiad of Turkish language and much more. Almost all “soft power,” Turkey is the Gulen.
— If it can be called an Islamist?
— It is, of course, Islamists. Gülen is a representative of the so-called “modernization” of Islam. Is a reconciliation of Islam and modernization. He is an absolute supporter of European-American civilization, but adapted to Muslim values. Now in Turkey he is credited with all sorts of terrorism, but it’s not true. Because any forceful action he and his followers never did. This does not mean that they could not communicate with terrorists. But the gülen movement, nothing blew up and no one was killed.
— Why gülen left for the United States?
In a recent successful coup in Turkey’s 1997 military has hit hard on Gulen and its structures. He was repeatedly arrested, he was living under a lot of pressure. In 1999, he went to the United States because of the threat of ending up in prison. Since then he lives in Pennsylvania.
— Perhaps that is why many say that gülen cooperates with the CIA?
— That the CIA takes care of it, obviously. In Turkey, the military once published a report stating that Gulen’s Empire is purely careesma structure. Of course, from the point of view of the CIA would be foolish not to exploit such a huge, extensive intellectual structure that operates worldwide. And the CIA uses it. But that is formed and launched the CIA is not true. I think that gülen believes that he is using Americans for their own purposes.
— What goals seeks Gulen?
— No one knows. In his books and speeches, there is nothing about intention to create an Islamic state. Gulen advocates a secular, democratic state, arranged American patterns. According to him, Islam is good to exist in a democratic society.
— Why Gulen broke with Erdogan? Because at first he supported it?
— Moreover, Erdogan’s party of justice and development of the gülen movement made up a significant part. They were co-founders of the party. They had a quota. The government has always been open 2-3 gylenova. It really was a close Alliance. In the period of their friendship many times Erdogan invited Gulen to return to Turkey. Initially, they had a falling out over the “freedom Flotilla”, when, with the support of Erdogan to Gaza to unlock it, sent a few ships with food and medical supplies. This caused a very strong reaction to Israel’s flotilla was defeated, there were victims. This action was firmly condemned Fethullah Gulen. This was the beginning of the cooling of relations, and they soon had a falling-out completely. The gülen movement began to gradually squeeze from state structures, where Erdogan actively planted, seeing them as a barrier against the Kemalists. They have had strong positions in the police, the judiciary, the legal profession and many other places, now, after a coup attempt, they were all fired.
If a structure of Gulen we are closed?
— His school was closed, and I think that’s right. But cultural centres remain. I think that all people should know who is behind Moscow Russian-Turkish cultural center. But he’s absolutely gorgeous cultural activities. Three years ago, the gülen movement has organized Days of Russian culture in Istanbul. At their own expense brought about 15 bands and artists. In my opinion, this activity is not contrary to the interests of the Russian Federation.
— A Gulen high schools, we were closed under the slogan that it is a hotbed of pan-Turkism…
— About pan-Turkism agree, but it’s not their main thing. Pan-Turkism Gulen is a side effect. For example, a common Turkish school history books — so this is a real pan-Turkism. The ideology of Ataturk is a pan-Turkic ideology. For the average Turk, who graduated from high school, pan — Turkism is the usual picture of the world.
And this ideology involves the return of the territories that once belonged to the Ottoman Empire?
— No, of pan-Turkism does not exist anymore. Gülen, by the way, until 2013, was with Erdogan in close Union. And since 2002, when Erdogan and Gulen were still together, the whole pan-Turkic activities in Turkey was phased out almost completely.
But Erdogan himself is also called the pan -…
— This is nonsense. It has nothing to do pan-Turkism. It can even be called an enemy of pan-Turkism. He, as you know, LAZ — that is, Georgians. Erdogan is famous for the fact that he revived the phenomenon of Ottomanism. This Imperial idea, associated primarily with Islam, and in fact denies nationalism. For Turkey, the ethnic question has always been relevant. They have two main problems: the Kurdish and Armenian. Until recently, in Turkey, all had to be written by Turks irrespective of ethnic origin. It got to the point that in the conversation in Kurdish in a public place could attract to administrative responsibility.
— What has changed under Erdogan?
— Erdogan several times in their speeches said that ethnic origin is of no importance. “It’s important that we are all citizens of Turkey.” When Erdogan was openly broadcasting in the Kurdish language. In schools teaching in Kurdish. And not only Kurdish. For example, in Circassian. Circassians is the third largest ethnic group in Turkey. Moreover, if the class has recruited more than 20 people who want to learn a specific language, the state is obliged to pay the teachers. Earlier all this was strictly forbidden. The military would not allow any Kurdish language. Erdogan himself is not a Turk. He once said in one of his speeches, as I asked my father (and his father was a Mullah): “Who are we Turks or lazy?” The father replied: “In my youth I asked this question to my grandfather. He said: when a Muslim dies, in the afterlife he appears before the angel. The angel he asks: “What is your religion? Who is your prophet?” Angel asks what is your nationality”. That is the essence of the ideology of Ottomanism. With pan-Turkism Erdogan has done. Pan — Turkism is just the ideology of the military.
— Can Americans be behind the latest coup attempt in Turkey?
“I think the Americans could not fail to be aware of the fact that the military is preparing a coup. After all, he was arrested by the chief of the air base of Incirlik, and this is the base where U.S. nuclear weapons. It is a strategic object, and the CIA stuck there so much that they had to have the most accurate information.
— That is the military supposed to get some “good” for their actions on the part of Americans?
— I think that they are, of course, asked permission. Because all the Turkish military are very closely connected with America, they studied there. The Americans most likely they said something like: “if you succeed, well, then we will support you.”
“But won’t we you will otherwise. Like with Saakashvili’s adventure in 2008.
— Of course. The rebellion can not end good fortune. Americans supported all military coups in Turkey. Because they were all somehow aimed at stabilizing the situation in the country. It is clear that Americans are now a big grudge against Erdogan, as he leads a too independent policy.
“We’ve got too large a tooth. Support for ISIS (banned in Russia as a terrorist organization). Oil trade with terrorists…
— The fact that we have the word “ISIS” are all Islamists in Syria. Actually there are 2-3 dozen different groups. Some of them, such as the same Ikhwan, or “brotherhood” (banned in Russia as a terrorist organization), absolutely clients Erdogan, he is friends with them and strongly support them. ISIS itself is always in Turkey were subjected to very harsh criticism. For the average Turk ISIS is the worst enemy of the Turkish state. But the Turks accuse Russia that it has not only in the “Islamic state”, and for all who are against Assad. In fact, the whole conflict ensued around the Turkomans. It’s really the Syrian Turks, who there formed several enclaves and who were supported by Turkey. After all, the land actually once was part of the Ottoman Empire.
You say that Erdogan supports ISIS?
Erdogan supports ISIS.
“But everyone knows that the path to ISIS runs through Turkey. What “recruits” from the former USSR special people meet at Ankara airport, escorted to the border with Syria and so on.
Yes, Turkey passed all who is going for Jihad. Turkey has many other claims. Recently, Kadyrov provided a list of Chechen militants, which I would like to get from Turkey, where they are hiding. No one, of course, not to be. And they too us to bring a claim. In Moscow there is an office of the Kurdistan workers party, which Turkey considers a terrorist organization. And we also do not issue. And the fact that this Islamist plague in Turkey is booming, that Turkey is their rear base and that secret services work with them — is beyond doubt. But I think that now the situation will change, given that the Islamists began to organize attacks in Turkey.
— Erdogan is a friend or foe of Russia?
— To simplify the impossible. But his interests greatly coincide with the interests of the Russian Federation. And even in modern Turkey, we have very few enemies. Eurasianism and the Union with Russia and Iran against the West, supported the nationalists, Islamists, Communists, left-wing, right-wing — almost the whole of Turkey.
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